boozysmurf ([info]boozysmurf) wrote,
@ 2008-05-21 22:28:00
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Entry tags:cars, fleet vehicle, fuel, fuel economy, gas prices, hybrid, police cars

There's A Guy...
...Stop me if you've heard this one.

There's a guy, in Sheboygan Wisconsin, Who's not driving for thirty-one days. Technically, it's a protest to gas prices, but he illustrates a good point. You can get around, even in more spread-out areas, without a car. He's also going to figure out how much he travels by bike, calculate what he would have spent on gas, and donate that amount to charity.

There's also a point to this.

Here in Ottawa, various city groups are constantly complaining about being underfunded. The Police force comes quickly to mind. And gas is expensive, and lets face it, cops use a lot of gas. So.... why aren't police forces using hybrid full-size sedans?

Oh, because No one makes any.

Why the hell do Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler, the primary suppliers of fleet vehicles, not have hybrid variants yet? THey've got hybrid PICK UP TRUCKS for fuck's sake!?!

I say this, because I walked down to get lunch, from work, and there were two cops parked side-by-each in the parking lot, talking. I've no problem with that. But both cars are running. When I walked back, they're still there, both still idling. At least twenty minutes. That's a lot of gas. You figure there's, oh, say, fifty to a hundred cop cars on the road, in Ottawa, every day, twenty four hours a day. Those cars almost never get turned off. And they get about 15mpg in city driving. I know, I used to own one. And the thing is, most of that time is either idling, or cruising in city traffic.

And that's where the hybrids excel.

Right now, hybrids are designed so that if you're not right into the gas, the electic motors run off battery, and the gas engine doesn't come on. At the same time, they turn off the gas engine at stops, etc. Now, I realize there's an added electrical load with cop cars, with all the computers and equipment, but still. You could re-work the computers so that when a car sits idle for "x" amount of time, the gas engine shuts down, but everything else stays on, on that giant battery that pumps enough juice to move a vehicle for 65km by itself. Plenty to run computers and radios. And you further set the computers to turn the engine on to idle when the charge gets down to 5% or so. Will be as efficient as a private hybrid like the Prius? No, it won't. At least, not on a minute-to-minute basis. But, like I said, those cars, those big V8's, idle nearly twenty-four hours a day. If you can cut that, via a battery/electric motor set-up, to say, twelve hours a day, and use a V6 instead of an eight (or, hell, a DIESEL straight six with electric assist)[1]. Beyond the footnoted economy and emissions improvements, here's the other reason that makes sense for Cops.

Torque.

For those who aren't car people, Horsepower is the number everyone knows. But, the reality is, Horsepower equals top-speed, and is achieved high in the rev-range. Admittedly, V8's make power at much lower revs than smaller engines. But, most people never use horsepower. What you use, for acceleration, is torque. Torque, if the engine is built for it, happens down low in the rev range: in Diesels, down in the fifteen hundred RPM area. There's a reason big rigs are designed, with turbo-on-turbo-on-supercharger, to make prodigious torque and much lower horsepower (for example, maybe three hundred horsepower, but maybe eleven hundred foot-pounds of torque) It's because that is what will get a big load moving, and get it up to speed.

Why is this important for a lot of fleet vehicles, like cop cars?

Because chases aren't performed or won at high speed. They're won in the twenty to eighty km/h sprint. So, if you were to take the 4.6L V8 out of the current Ford Crown Victoria (somewhere around 265hp, and 290lb.ft of torque), and put in, say, a straight-six-cylinder Powerstroke Turbo Diesel, say, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 180hp, and 450lb.ft of torque, and THEN add a pair of electric motors at, say, 100lb.ft of torque each, suddenly, you've got a car that accelerates like a motherfucker. And that wins car chases.

It should be noted that I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, there. However, I think the logic behind it is valid, and well-informed.

See, like I said, it's all in how you drive a hybrid. If you're just tooling along in traffic, you get electric only. Say you're on the highway, where it doesn't make a lot of sense to run just electric, you get a mild combination of both engine and electric. Both of those increase fuel economy drastically, and reduce emissions even more. And then, when there's a chase, or emergency the cop puts his foot down. As he does, the electric motors are already working, and at maximum capacity, because they're an on/off proposition. if you want it, there's 200lb.ft of torque there from 0 RPM. But, their foot is to the floor, so while the electrics are already getting you moving, the Diesel is starting up, and adding it's own prodigious torque to the heap. Suddenly, you've got the same car with, hypothetically 650lb.ft of torque. And down REALLY REALLY LOW. Like, in-traffic low. So, even if the cop has to brake, (s)he still has all that torque on tap, much less likely that there's going to be waiting time while the cruiser comes back up to speed/revs. Because it's there.

I don't know what the logistics would be: Jay would know better than me. But what little I do know says that this makes sense. You combine a far more efficient, cleaner engine, with the ability to not run all the time, and suddenly you're saving a lot of fuel. Taxis would see the same benefit.

Yes, the initial outlay, IF the manufacturers decided to even sell them (and they should, as they're still determined that North American's only want big cars, but they know that fuel costs are killing sales) would be higher than a standard PI[2]. And it's pretty well known that the initial outlay, currently, doesn't really pay off, on Hybrids: It takes about four years of more-than-average driving to pay off the difference in the purchase price of a hybrid system in fuel savings. But that's in civillian use. In either police, or taxi, fleet use, that would come a lot quicker, maybe within a year. Especially as building in that kind of volume would reduce the price of the parts, and push the limits of the technology forward too.

I mean, think how long taxi's idle for at, say, Rideau Centre? Think how that would save the cabbies in the pocket book, the gas tank, and the emissions output.

As Jay will happily tell you, there's a wear issue with stopping/starting a car often, and that's not become a problem with hybrid's yet, but may do. But, at the same time, if you were to use a diesel, they're much, much tougher, and designed to run much longer with less wear. It may offset that issue at least partially.

I don't expect anyone in power to pay real attention to this, but, it's out there now. It seems smart to me.



[1] North America is woefully behind on Diesel. Yes, right now, it's about fourteen cents a litre more expensive. But, with well tuned, modern FSI Turbo Diesel engine, you can get pretty much double the mileage of the equivelant gasoline engine. And, new Diesel engines are actually cleaner than gasoline too.
[2] PI = Police Interceptor




(Post a new comment)


[info]quotation
2008-05-22 03:39 am UTC (link)
Well, most of the taxis in Ottawa are Propane, not unleaded.

But you're right that cops use way too much gas. Especially in the summer, to run the A/C, to keep the electronics from overheating.

I'm surprised, though, that you don't mention the Chevrolet Volt. It's a "hybrid," not like the Prius is a hybrid, but like how a locomotive is a hybrid. And with 236ft-lbs of torque, it's supposedly going to be quite zippy.

I'm really impressed by the implications of the Chevy Volt for exactly how I think it can change cop fleets. So long as they scale it up in to a Caprice body soon.

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[info]boozysmurf
2008-06-09 03:03 pm UTC (link)
True: but you could run propane/hybrid too: and there's no reason why upcoming fleet vehciles couldn't be diesel/hybrid.

The Volt looks like a really neat idea. I don't know if I have faith in GM to either follow through, or execute it properly, if they do. The auto news is full of info on the Volt, and they don't really have the details nailed down yet. It might be 2010, it might be 2011 now. It might be a plug-in hybrid, it might be a plug-in all-electric (which I don't support).

I want Mitsubishi to build the Hybrid Eclipse they showed two years ago. 470hp combined power, through an AWD system, gas engine in the front, electrics in the back, but I've not heard anything about it in a while.

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[info]quotation
2008-06-09 03:23 pm UTC (link)
It might be a plug-in hybrid, it might be a plug-in all-electric (which I don't support).

It's not hybrid as we consider hybrid to mean, and it's not really all-electric.

It's got an all-electric drivetrain, and you can plug it in to charge the batteries. The batteries also charge through regenerative braking.

There's a gas generator that will come with it. The gas generator will always run at the peak of its power curve (for maximum efficiency), and always provide a constant level of power, regardless of your lead foot. The gas generator charges the batteries when they get below about 30%, and the car is only ever moved by the electric motor.

If you only ever make short trips in town (40km, I think), then you can leave the gas tank empty and leave the generator in your garage to reduce weight. Chevy refers to the generator as a "range extender." The rack and socket for the range extender in the Volt is designed for you to drop in whatever power source you want.

Gas generator? Diesel generator? Extra batteries? Hydrogen fuel cell? Flux Capacitor? Solar bodywork? Etc.

This is not at all a "hybrid" system as the market currently knows it. But, it's exceptionally similar to decades-old technology from diesel-electric railway locomotives.

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[info]boozysmurf
2008-06-09 03:29 pm UTC (link)
Oh, totally, and it's the smart way to go, because you don't have all that drag on the system: no power steering on a belt, no brake booster, no alternator, no water pump, no transmission, for that matter.

But again, why the fixation on GAS?? The new clean diesel's are cleaner than gasoline, anyway. North America has this aversion to diesel that appears to be based in the 1970's, and it's ridiculous.

Me, I'll take Turbo-Diesel (better, smaller packaging) and some extra batteries.

Again, assuming this isn't vapourware. They keep saying they'll do it, but they also keep pushing the date back.

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[info]quotation
2008-06-09 04:02 pm UTC (link)
GM has set aside the funds, and, financially, entirely bet the farm on this thing. The date will change, the expected pricing will change, but it will happen.

Major stumbling block is exactly what you said -- nothing hanging on the belt. They've had to design all-new wiper systems, radios, lights, etc, to keep the accessories from killing the electric range. Apparently, that's been the biggest hurdle.

The fixation on gas is irrelevant. Once they get the batteries and electric drivetrain sorted, they can put in anything, it's just that gas is what they know best, so that's the drop-in powerplant they build first.

Have you looked at the Subaru PZEV system?

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[info]autobotsrollout
2008-05-22 05:08 am UTC (link)
Why the hell do Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler, the primary suppliers of fleet vehicles, not have hybrid variants yet?

Because for the Big Three, everything smaller than a mid-sized sedan is a loss leader, a mid-sized sedan is a revenue-neutral product, and the SUVs and trucks are where they actually profit - which is why they push those lines so hard compared to the small cars.

But they're going to be out of business in the next twenty years regardless, so.

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[info]boozysmurf
2008-06-09 02:55 pm UTC (link)
Late Response now art/park is done.

That's kind of my point though: They moved to SUV's as the swing from fullsize cars, the new wagon, etc. But, people are simply not buying SUV's and trucks in the numbers they were even five years ago. So, a return to the fullsize sedan makes sense (it always did for me, to be honest: all the room of an SUV, but not shaped like a brick, with six inches more clearance to create turbulence and kill economy)

So, a fullsize sedan, with a hybrid setup, a good one, rather than fucking around with it and doing lip service, makes a lot of sense. Not only do you sell fleet vehicles (rental car agencies, police, taxi, government) by the truckload, but you market them as the size replacement for SUV's with economy.

And for God's sake, bring back the fucking wagons! A well made station wagon has way more space in it that a typically badly-packaged SUV. And "touring" cars sell like gangbusters in Europe. They CAN make cool wagons (ie. BMW 5-series Touring, Dodge Magnum(discontinued, because beyond the first three weeks, they never marketed it, focusing on SUV's and the charger; and, of course, Volvo.

You're right though. FOr a long, long time, I truly believed that the US government would never let GM fall, because of what it would do to the supporting industries, parts suppliers, etc which depend on GM as a buyer, but I think they might finally wash their hands of it all. UAW is going to fight it tooth and nail, however, if what is going on in Oshawa is any indication, with CAW.

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[info]mr_rhodes
2008-05-22 02:18 pm UTC (link)
i can't remember the exact details, but the government cancelled the eco-rebate for buying hybrids in part because the big three lobbied on account of them not having enough models to compete with foreign car companies who are far ahead in hybrid and eco-friendly models. nice...

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-28 10:32 am UTC (link)
I'm just gonna slide on by this one cause my typed rants are more disjointed than my verbal ones. ;-P

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]boozysmurf
2008-06-09 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, because it's ridiculous that they actually have to COMPETE for market share... :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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